Love, Lies, and Déjà Vu: Bernie Returns with Mental Health Expert Cassandra O’Hara

Speaker A: 00:00:00

It's the reality.

Dating right now is really challenging for all demographics of individuals because you do have so many more people trolling the Internet and, you know, really preying on people's vulnerabilities.

Speaker B: 00:00:16

Introducing the protectors inside criminal minds from around the world. Presented by the IAFCI leaders in safeguarding consumers from fraud and scams for more than 50 years.

And now your hosts, International president Mark Sultz Solomon and Chairman of the Board, Michael Carroll.

Speaker C: 00:00:36

Hello, everybody. This is Mike Carroll, international Chairman of the International association of Financial Crimes Investigators.

I am with Mark Solomon, our international president. Mark, how you doing today?

Speaker D: 00:00:49

I am doing good, sir. And you know what? We just passed by Valentine's recently, so we hope everybody had a great Valentine's.

Speaker C: 00:00:57

Yes.

Speaker D: 00:00:58

And as you know, the fraudsters don't stop. They go 24, 7, 365. We wanted to bring another special episode and focus on romance scams. There's a lot of great relationships out there.

There's a lot of people that you could meet, and then there's some fraudsters that are out there as well that are looking to take advantage of you. So we have actually not one Mike, but two incredible guests. One of them is a return guest of the podcast and we'll kick this show right off.

Well, our first guest was on episode 93, and he A survivor of a romance scam. And he was also congratulated us and. And made an appearance on our 100th episode. So without further ado, I'd like to welcome Bernie back to the show.

Speaker E: 00:01:50

Oh, guys, thanks for having me back. I. I am in the acronym, I believe, is smh. Shaking my head. I'm shaking my head that I'm back again because it happened again.

And it's, you know, it's an honor to be back and hopefully share this story. I. I can't believe what I'm about to tell you guys. What happened to me, and it's even worse than the last time, and yet I got caught again.

Speaker D: 00:02:17

That's all right, Bernie. Listen, it happens. And you know what? We brought a subject matter expert to be on this podcast with us, and I'd like to introduce her.

She is a licensed professional counselor with a master's degree in clinical Mental Health counseling from the University of Bridge and a bachelor's degree in psychology from Sacred Heart University. She has experience working in outpatient settings with adults, adolescents, couples, families, and the LGBTQIA community.

She works with individuals experiencing anxiety, depression, mood disorders, trauma, and ptsd.

She is board certified with the National Board of Certified Counselors and is a member of the American Counseling association and the Connecticut Counseling Association. We'd like to welcome to the show Cassandra Desireeaux o'. Hara.

Speaker A: 00:03:11

Mark and Mike, thank you so much for having me.

Speaker D: 00:03:14

Well, Mike, I'll let you kick things off.

Speaker C: 00:03:16

All right. Bernie, you were on episode 93.

Speaker E: 00:03:19

Yeah.

Speaker C: 00:03:20

And you were, you know, you talked about being a victim of a romance scam, and now you're back again. Don't tell me this happened again to you.

Speaker E: 00:03:26

Well, it did, but it's a very, very different circumstance. So I knew her 10 years ago, and we dated on and off for a couple years. I was going through some things. She was going through some things.

And then she left and went overseas for the last five and a half years. Came back 11 months ago and came back to stay with a friend down. She was down south and pretty far away.

And then she reached out to me about two months ago and started, you know, hey, I'm back. And you know, are you single? What's going on? And she pursued me, and that's how thing started. But I knew who she was.

I knew she was not unlike the last one, a fraud that was secretly married. I knew who she was, and I was glad to hear from her because I liked her and I was never so excited to hear from her.

Speaker D: 00:04:16

Cassandra, let me ask you a question here.

What goes on emotionally and inside the brain when, you know, in this case, you know, Bernie had a prior relationship with this individual, and then all of a sudden, kind of a years of absence and then reconnects, you know, what goes on with the mind, the br. You know, there's gotta be some excitement going on, but there's other things working in the background, right?

Speaker A: 00:04:40

Absolutely.

I mean, in listening to the scenario, having had a prior relationship, having had a prior connection, what it does is it creates excitement within the brain.

You know, chemicals obviously are released when we feel pleasure or reward, such as dopamine, you know, when there was previous, let's say, trust or bonding. Oxytocin is something that the body produces, serotonin. Right.

Mood and emotional stability comes from having a previous connection with someone and makes us feel safe. And then there's the emotional soothing that comes from, you know, knowing someone as well, which is where those endorphins come in.

So, yes, there's an easy way to form real emotional bonds with people, whether you've known them before or whether you've never known them, by just knowing that they can create those safety measures for you and your brain.

Speaker E: 00:05:26

Yeah, my endorphins were kicking in big time. But we'll get into that. Okay.

Speaker C: 00:05:30

Hey, Bernie, when she reached out to you, how was that? Was it through social media or something like that? Or you get a phone call or. How did that all start?

Speaker E: 00:05:36

Real quick, she actually text messaged me. And through the years, I had tried to find her and unsuccessfully, you know, never heard from her.

And then out of the blue, she texted me and said, hey, it's me, Jane Doe. I'm. I've been looking for you time. I can't believe I finally found you. And that's how it all started about six, seven weeks ago.

Speaker C: 00:05:59

Hey, Bernie, after you met this person, at what point did she ask for money or did you give her money? How did that come into play?

Speaker E: 00:06:08

It took a couple of phone calls, and she asked me pretty quickly, hey, you know, I like wine and snacks. Can you cash at me? 30 Bucks. That's how it started. Okay. And she would do that. It got to the point where she did it every other day at first.

And then it got to the point where, let's see, in six weeks, she was asking me on a daily basis, I want wine tonight. Can you help me out? She doesn't have a job. And. And she hasn't had a job. She's living rent free with a friend in an apartment. Okay.

And she would constantly say, hey, I need some money for food. You know, can you cash at me this? 30 Bucks can cash at me that. And then it got to be 50 bucks. And then it got to be, hey, I need a mani petty.

Can you cash at me? $70 For that? She was always playing on me.

Now, the other side of this is, the reason that I would cash app her is we started video chatting just like the last one. So I, you know, we were video chatted on a regular basis.

We would talk five, six times a day, and we would video chat at least once or twice every day. And she was like, you know, maybe this is time that we can really make a go of it. I would be willing to spend the next four seasons with you. Okay.

And. And if. Then we can get engaged and get married. If you want a baby, I'll have a baby with you. I know that's been your dream.

I'd love to have a baby because I have one and I'd love to have a second baby. And she was seducing me in all this. So I proceeded to start sending her money, and in 20, 18 times over six weeks, I sent her 16 $33 on cash app.

Speaker D: 00:07:54

So, Bernie, I want to ask Actually, Cassandra. Cassandra, you just heard, you know, how quickly this relationship.

And yes, there was a previous relationship, but, you know, there was a lot of absence. And then all of a sudden, it just seems like this relationship took off so quickly, and money exchanges, you know, relatively quickly.

What's your assessment of this? What do you think?

Is there something that if, you know, Bernie could have done or maybe there's some red flags that you're hearing right now that should cause some concern?

Speaker A: 00:08:28

Well, the first thing that kind of comes to mind as I, you know, not knowing, you know, Bernie very well, but is, you know, what type of attachment does Bernie have? Right. When we think about attachment styles, it's really important.

And consideration around, you know, financial crimes or romance scams and economic abuse in relationships, oftentimes what we're seeing is a more insecure attachment, you know, where you're more, you know, you have a higher vulnerability to manipulation. And they're also. They're often rooted in early life experiences.

So, you know, when listening to this, Bernie's brain essentially got into proactive and protective mode and realized that he had this attachment who was promising him a lot of really critical things, which tells me that there's some unmet needs there for Bernie that she was trying to fulfill. And so what happens to the brain is it's afraid of losing the relationship. And so there is this urgency to try to help. And then, you know, when we.

When we do help. Right. We notice that they keep reaching out to us, and so we continue to do that, and it becomes an emotional dependency.

It makes it hard for the person to think clearly, to really notice any particular red flags that might be evident if they weren't in this, you know, really unhealthy attachment. And it builds a strong loyalty. And so the brain essentially goes into a protective mode. And it is not a sign of weakness.

You know, for Bernie, it's really an emotional bond that Bernie created, you know, and that was the intention of this person, because this person is a skilled manipulator.

Speaker C: 00:09:54

Hey, Cassandra, can I ask you, in law enforcement, and same with Mark, we've had cases involving romance scams in the past.

Speaker A: 00:10:02

Sure.

Speaker C: 00:10:02

And a lot of times, the victims would lose money. You know, always an emergency or a tragic event, and they need money right away.

But the other one, like Bernie's talking about is, give me money, and we'll live happily ever after. You see that, too. Does that come into play a lot?

Speaker A: 00:10:18

I think in general, when you're looking at key factors, Right. When you're talking to an Individual.

As Bernie and this individual were building a relationship and having these conversations, Bernie was giving information that this particular individual was able to use to her advantage. Right.

So even when we're considering, you know, intimate partner violence, sort of along the same lines, if Bernie has a secure attachment, let's say somebody could actually have him have an insecure attachment as a result of them feeding into the things that he wants to do, like help, be loyal, have a family.

All of those factors are going to get him to do things that he may not normally do in other circumstances, because they're really paying attention to what Bernie's unmet needs are. Right. So in the case of Bernie, it's, he wants a family, he wants this connection. And she was feeding right into that.

And Bernie would have never really known that it was going on until he knew. Right. It's kind of smacks you in the.

Speaker E: 00:11:13

Face before you realize, oh, God, Cassandra, you nailed that one. You're right. She. She fed into my dream to be able to have a child. It was like, oh, she. She pushed those buttons.

She would say to me, I want to know your four season seasons. And I've always said that. Anyway, she goes, and then we can get married right away and we can have a baby and. And we'll be happily ever after.

Speaker C: 00:11:38

Yeah.

Speaker D: 00:11:38

You know, Bernie, I know you know, this is this. In both of these instances, these, you know, fraudsters basically leveraged you knowing that you wanted to have a child.

It's something that you hadn't had in your life yet. So it seems so important to you that, you know, to have that.

It's just amazing how both of them keyed off at that point and used that to their advantage.

Speaker E: 00:12:02

They absolutely did. They. They sucked me right in with that one.

Speaker D: 00:12:06

Hey, Bernie, I'm gonna. I'm gonna help you out here. I have two children. I'm gonna send them to you. They're driving me crazy. So they're 19 and 24. So you could have them.

You could have them, and then you'll never want a child ever again. I'm kidding, I'm kidding.

Speaker E: 00:12:24

Hey, hey, I got golden retrievers, okay? They'll be okay with your kids.

Speaker C: 00:12:30

Hey, Bernie, I gotta ask you, did you said she' south out of state. Did you ever meet? You ever get together?

Speaker E: 00:12:38

Oh, well, that's the next part of the story. Okay, guys, so she professed that she would move up here with me and move in with me, okay?

And so I booked a flight for her, and on a Monday, this was. She was going to come up two weekends ago for Friday till Monday, till Monday morning. And she's like, we'll hang out together.

We'll just make sure we're, you know, in sync because. Because on the phone we were all great.

She goes, and I really, really want to see you and I want to see your dogs, and I just want to just, you know, get reacquainted with you. Because it's been, you know, five and a half years. The flight magically got canceled.

And by the way, I say that because I'm pretty sure she canceled it on her own.

And it not only got canceled once, it got canceled twice now that Friday morning and was not allowed on the flight because it was canceled again and again. She canceled it to get the flight credits. And that was the first part of the scam. And I'm almost convinced of that because I'm just.

No one else could cancel it. And why would anyone else cancel it? And the only person that could cancel it had to know the code, the six digit code, the confirmation code.

She and I were the only two people that knew it. That was two weekends ago.

Then she says to me, well, why don't you just fly down and I'll drive back, move in with you, and let's get this romance started.

And I spent all kinds of money, you know, bought the one way ticket, flew down on Sunday, drove back Tuesday and Wednesday back to my house, and that's when the whole thing fell apart. Okay? She claimed that she was ready for. For me.

I told her that I, you know, she knew all about the animals, the dogs, because I was with her for three days. They were jumping and crazy and she wouldn't even walk in the front door.

She walked to the front door and said, oh, my God, your dogs are going to kill. Jumped back in her car, okay? I brought the dogs one at a time so she could see them.

And she said, I'm scared to death of the dogs because also, she's never had pets. And her first excuse was, your dogs, my golden retrievers are going to maul you. They're going to attack you. And she said, I have a panic attack.

She drove out the driveway and just took off without ever walking in the door.

Speaker D: 00:15:01

Well, Bernie, I'm gonna stop you right there. And as you were retelling this story of what happened to you, there were some words you used about yourself that were negative.

I think he might have said you were like a loser. I got sucker or something like that. And. Or the idiot I was.

I want to go to Cassandra and Cassandra, is this a normal reaction when somebody is targeted in a romance scam or an investment scam? And is that the right feeling that they should have about themselves?

Speaker A: 00:15:31

It is absolutely the feeling that they would have in this circumstance. Right, because what ends up happening is they start to question. And in Bernie's case, I'm assuming he's questioned himself, right?

His capacity, his intelligence. How could I not see these red flags? How can I not see these things?

And so it is really appropriate, you know, to feel in the initial stages, to feel the way that Bernie felt or to have those self deprecating comments, right, because that's how we're feeling in the moment. And that is the sort of those first stages of the grieving process that comes, you know, from having been scanned in this way.

Because again, the brain truly believed that this was a healthy, wholesome possibility. It was an attachment relationship. And then it was very quick. He was very quick to find out that it wasn't.

And so when you think about stages of grief, right, it's, you're going to go through these cycles where you are, you know, in shock, you are feeling ashamed and angry, confused, you know, feeling a sense of loss in your own identity, loss of future dreams, right? All of those things are going to come up.

And we beat ourselves up because we've made those choices and weren't able to see essentially what would have been right in front of us if we hadn't been having an unhealthy attachment. And so, you know, Bernie feeling that way is completely appropriate.

The goal would be right, to get Bernie to recognize that it was never about anything that he did wrong. And it was everything about the bond that created, you know, with this individual.

And the fact that she love bombed him, she literally made him feel like this was a real wholesome opportunity for him to fulfill what seems like some of his lifelong dreams of having a family and having children.

Speaker E: 00:17:06

Let me add a little bit more to what Cassandra said. I was convinced by her that she was ready to take this second chance together. She absolutely convinced me that we were going to make this happen.

We were going to get married. I told my best friends that I finally found the love of my life. I've been praying for this and we're going to make a go at this.

I had conference calls with my, my three or four best friends that wanted.

Speaker A: 00:17:36

To meet her first.

Speaker E: 00:17:37

I was setting up a whirlwind romance with her to meet all these people and she was just, she was ready to go.

Speaker C: 00:17:45

Hey, Bernie, you broke up a little Bit, but I got the gist of it. I just want to ask you, so what's your situation right now? I mean, you're. You're still not sending her any money, correct? I mean, where.

Where are you at right now? You had conversation with her?

Speaker E: 00:17:55

No, no, no, no. What happened was she came up here. She didn't even walk in my door.

Speaker C: 00:18:00

So, Bernie, she didn't stay with you tonight. Where did she sleep?

Speaker E: 00:18:04

She slept in a motel room around the corner.

Speaker D: 00:18:09

So, Cassandra, you know, when I was listening to Bernie, you could physically feel the hurt and the pain and the anger. And I know you talked about going through that, the stages of mourning.

But what is critical for Bernie to know right now, at some point, you have to let go of that guilt, that anger, and, you know, what is the best step for Bernie to sort of recover from this and not let it scar him in the future?

Speaker A: 00:18:39

That's a loaded question. It's a little bit complicated because it. I hate to be the bearer of that, but it is.

It's a little bit loaded because it's happened, you know, to Bernie, unfortunately, a couple of times, which, you know, leads me to believe that none of this is Bernie's fault.

So I want to preface that, you know, Bernie followed his heart and followed, you know, what he thought was something viable and something that would be wholesome, and it turned out to be the opposite of that.

But I think in general, when we're looking at why these things can happen to folks, it's oftentimes something that they need to work through within themselves. And so I think Bernie.

And I'm going to speak directly to you, you know, I think it's really trying to figure out what are you looking for in a partner. Right. And what is it that you want in the long term for yourself?

It's going to be really helpful to you to sort of slow yourself down and be able to notice some of those red flags when they are happening, because, again, you're dealing with master manipulators. It's something that, you know, you see in narcissistic relationships. It's things that you see in abusive relationships.

And they really prey on individuals who want wholesome, real, healthy relationships.

So, you know, Bernie, you gotta let yourself go through all of the stages of the first initial shock of realizing that this isn't what you thought it was. Being able to grieve, being able to really work through any shame that you're feeling.

Because I'd imagine that, you know, there's a level of shame that comes from this letting yourself be angry, it's really important to validate that this is something that is going to make you angry and feel very confused. And at times that we lose our sense of self and our identity in these situations.

And then trust is one of the most critical pieces that gets violated, which can ultimately create, you know, an emotional collapse for individuals because they don't end up trusting people. Which is what makes us even more susceptible to sort of that love bombing technique, right?

To be again, promise the world for it to be ripped out from underneath us. So I think, you know, Bernie, this isn't because, you know, you're not educated enough or capable enough.

It's really about figuring out how to pace yourself and really look at what you need from a partner as you move forward so that you can build trust with a human being and potentially have those wholesome dreams that you're looking for.

Speaker C: 00:20:56

Hey, Cassandra, can I ask you. I recently heard of trauma bonding, romance scams. Can you kind of explain what that is?

Speaker A: 00:21:04

So trauma bonding is a really sort of complex piece, and within that you get sort of that love bombing. Trauma bonding essentially is two people that get together where they're essentially. I'll give you an example, right?

Let's say you have an individual that really wants to have a partner who's fun and engaging and entertaining. And that's what they bond on. They bond on this individual fulfilling a need that they don't have.

Because perhaps that individual is more of a stickler, more of a type A personality, doesn't really know how to have fun. And then as the relationship sort of continues, that fun side of their partner no longer fits. Fits the mold, right?

And so the relationships end up becoming very toxic and unhealthy. Trauma bonding also comes from the lens of two people experiencing similar traumas, and they bond over those things.

And so the relationship is built on a foundation of bonding over traumatic events that have occurred. And oftentimes there's a slew of toxic behaviors that come out of those dynamics.

Oftentimes what you'll see is sort of a more of a narcissistic personality with more of an empathic personality. We kind of look at that as like the narcissist and empath sort of trap that happens.

So you kind of see some of the individuals who are more empathetic, more people pleasing, more kind, end up getting involved with people that are more on the narcissistic side. And it can become a very emotionally abusive and in cases, also cases, physically abusive situations.

And then when obviously we're looking at romance scams or, you know, financial crimes, it makes people more susceptible and vulnerable to that because they're preying literally on the vulnerabilities of this individual because they've bonded in this traumatic way or they've bonded in the lens of unmet needs. And so it creates a really unhealthy dynamic.

Speaker C: 00:22:51

Cassandra, we see that a lot.

Are you indicating, like, the person that meets somebody online, they'll say that they lost their spouse, and then the fraudster will say, oh, that happened to me too. I lost my spouse. Or. Or how many children you have? I have three. Why? Oh, I have three children, too. Is it something related to that? Where they.

Speaker A: 00:23:08

100%.

Speaker D: 00:23:10

So, Bernie, you know, statistics show in these type of cases that if a person is successfully victimized, that they're at greater risk of it happening again and again. Obviously, this is now the second time where you were targeted. Somebody committed a crime against you, but knowing that there could be a third time.

So, you know what, What I know. I. I hope it's not true. Trust me. I don't want you on the podcast for that reason. I want to hear. I want to hear you got married, you had a kid.

Speaker E: 00:23:44

That would be a fun podcast. That would.

Speaker D: 00:23:47

That's what we want to hear for, like, podcast 140. But, but seriously, is there anything that you could take away right now from what Cassandra saying?

Is there anything that you have, you know, over these two incidents, said, you know, this should be a red flag for me going forward?

Speaker E: 00:24:08

And I. And I thought about this. The problem is, you know, I'm looking for love.

I want to spend my life with somebody now, number two, and they'll start to pick up, you know, look, approach me. We'll. We'll engage. However, text, you know, this is Facebook, whatever, and they're going to continue.

And by the way, online, I get hit up for money all the time. Can you cash at me? I need this, I need that. Can you be a nice guy? Blah, blah, blah, blah. Now, going forward, I guess the punchline is this.

If they ask for money, don't do it under any circumstance. And then they get mad at you and they blow you off.

And then I realized, because I did a self evaluation over the last year, and I've said, money, $20 at a time, $30 just to keep them engaged, to see if they're real. Not one time. Okay, guys. And Cassandra, not one time. Any of them that ask for money. Real.

Speaker D: 00:25:09

Bernie, I could hear your anger still. And you have the right to be angry.

And that's, that's totally fine, but I'm glad you picked up about the money and you're seeing a consistent pattern, you know, but there's some other things, and I'll probably bring in Cassandra on this right now. These two bad experiences happened over communications, mostly over the Internet.

Maybe there's opportunity to meet, you know, women personally in your, in your world versus the computer.

And I know the computer sometimes is easier to meet people, but it might make a difference with you actually being able to be around a person, getting to know them. Secondly, the thing I thought about was, is how quickly it moved from reconnecting to talking about marriage and having a kid that normally.

And Cassandra, I'm going to bring you in on this. Do you see anything here, like I said, how quickly the relationship developed in both of these cases?

Speaker A: 00:26:10

Oh, I mean, absolutely. You know, we'll kind of go back to that term about love bombing.

You know, that's really what happened here, you know, so, you know, Bernie, I appreciate that you want to, you know, that you want to share and be focused on the fact that if people ask you for money, that's a no go, right?

But, you know, I think Mark brings up a valid point of, I think for you meeting people in person, tangible people who you can get to know and really connect with, I think will be a really good first step for you. And listen, I work with all types of individuals and all different age demographics who are in the dating world.

And, you know, if it's not romance scams or financial crimes, it's booty calls and who wants to have sex with this person. Hopefully that's okay to say on the air, but it's the reality.

Dating right now is really challenging for all demographics of individuals because you do have so many more people trolling the Internet and, you know, really preying on people's vulnerabilities. So I think, you know, Bernie, I would encourage you to really try to figure out, you know, one, give yourself some self compassion.

This is something that has happened to you and it has been devastating, I'm sure, in a variety of different ways, both emotionally and financially.

But I think my encouragement to you is really kind of sitting with yourself and really trying to sort out, healing some of your attachment wounds, some things that probably developed very early on in your life.

And I think that will really help you sort of catapult into the world of dating and really finding a woman who is going to love you not because she wants to promise you the world, because the moment somebody tells you that they're going to give you everything that you ever wanted and dreamed of.

That's a red flag immediately right there, that this person is probably not somebody that's going to be able to give, like, truly give you a healthy, wholesome relationship, and they're really just looking for something from you. And then money, obviously, that's off the table. Right.

If somebody's asking you for anything, that's an immediate, hey, you're not the individual that I want to talk to. And if they get mad at you, guess what? That's totally okay. Don't let that be the reason why somebody takes advantage of him.

Speaker E: 00:28:12

Oh, Cassandra, you're spot on.

Speaker C: 00:28:14

Hey, Mark, let me ask you. Both of us combined, we probably got about 60 years in law enforcement. And I'm listening to Bernie, and I'm just trying to think, where's the crime?

Was there a crime committed? I think what she did to him is tell him things that he wanted to hear, but I don't see the crime in here.

Speaker D: 00:28:31

Yeah, yeah, Mike, I'm glad you said that, because I think earlier I. I said about, you know, being a victim of a crime, you know, or call these people criminals. And let me clarify that, you know, this would not probably be something that you could prosecute it.

But what Bernie has gone through is exactly what victims that are, you know, outright criminals. Fraudsters pretending they're a military veteran or an overseas fraudster that is purposely doing it. There's no intention for a relationship at all.

But what Bernie's gone through is he was manipulated. You could say that.

It's not a crime to manipulate somebody, I guess, but took advantage of his desires to want to have a family, to fall in love with someone. At worst, they. They probably got a free ride at Bernie's expense to bring her to wherever she wanted to go.

I mean, you know, that's probably the worst case scenario here. But this mimics 100% the victims of romance scams. And again, in Bernie's case, he lost, you know, a couple thousand dollars.

And, you know, that hurts. We've seen victims lose their entire life savings, their houses, and then, like Mike, you said, they become money mules and they're.

They're actually committing crimes or helping facilitate committing crimes, and they had no intention to do that. And they think it's legitimate money movement. Movement. So, Bernie, let me ask you something here.

I hope and listen, I want you to understand something. You went through some horrible things, and we've gotten to know you over the past year, and I'll tell You what?

I've never met a guy that's funnier, has a good heart, a good sense of humor. And I want you to know, though, don't let these situations change who you are and keep looking for that relationship.

I'm telling you, I'm telling you are a good man, my friend. And like I said, and for all the victims out there, romance scams, you are good people. They, they didn't target you because you're bad people.

They targeted you because you are good, you're wholesome, you care for others, you're looking for a true relationship and building a relationship with someone. Don't ever change. What we just have to do is identify the warning signs and we gotta kind of get over that emotional and chemical reaction.

Is that a fair statement, Cassandra?

Speaker A: 00:31:06

I would say yes. You know, when you're really looking at romance scams as a whole, it is severe emotional abuse that is happening to the victims.

And because they are kind hearted and because they want to support others, and because they see, you know, the suffering that they're being presented with, they're going to do the best that they can to help that person to relieve their pain, not realizing that they're going to, you know, that they're causing themselves pain at the end of the day. But I think in general, nobody deserves to be treated so poorly and so unkindly and to be manipulated in this way.

And I would never want a victim to ever feel that it is as a result of something that they've done wrong or that they're not capable enough or smart enough or, you know, clever enough to understand what's happening to them. So I think it's important to really validate, Bernie, you did nothing wrong in this situation. You led with your heart.

You know, I do encourage you to work towards figuring out how to build healthy, wholesome relationships from the land of security versus from trying to give people more than they deserve before they've earned it.

Speaker E: 00:32:07

Oh, and Cassandra, and I got you. I'm so thankful for your expertise in all that, you know, about this stuff. And me, I'm just burning. I'm a contractor, I work hard.

I love my friends, I love my family, I love my dogs and my kid. I live a happy, healthy life. I'm just looking for love. I want to be loved and I want to just.

I really, Cassandra, I just, I just want the love of my life. And I'm tired of being lonely for the last two years. And so I guess maybe that's why I am a victim.

Speaker A: 00:32:41

I don't know, well, it's, you know, I'm here you, and I'm so sorry that you're feeling lonely and isolated. And I love that you love your family and friends and your support systems.

And I think more than anything, you have to love yourself really well and really hard because you're the only one out there that can do that. I think the more security you find within yourself, the easier it will be to be able to build trust for yourself. Right?

To be able to trust yourself to make really good decisions and meet healthy, wholesome people. I encourage you to try to see people in different community events and, you know, engagements.

I think meeting people face to face lets you see them better, lets you understand what they're looking for from you. Body language, affect, all of that helps in building healthy relationships. And again, I think you, you just want to be loved.

It's what I heard in the first episode that I listened to and it's what I'm hearing today. And I think it's beautiful and it's wonderful and you deserve that.

But you've got to be able to love yourself before anybody else is going to be able to love you.

Speaker E: 00:33:40

Well, okay, now let me. I love myself, no problem with that whatsoever. Okay? So I need. I had no problem with that. I'm just still seeking out.

A funny quick little thing is my buddy said, go to Costco and go to the $5, you know, daily chicken fry, you know, thing that they have and stand there and talk to the woman, the single woman face to face that picks her chicken five dollar meal that night and strike up a conversation with her. Obviously she's single.

Speaker A: 00:34:25

Hey, that's a great restaurant. Great suggestion.

Speaker C: 00:34:30

Yeah. Bernie, I agree with what Cassandra's saying.

I mean, there's groups out there, you know, if you're a religious person, there's community groups, religious groups in your neighborhood probably, that you go singles meetings, people face to face is awesome. That's the way I would go. I got a serious question, though, I wanted to ask because it's the last one we had talked about regarding family members.

Mark. We've gotten calls, right, from family members that are saying, hey, I got, you know, a sister or cousin that's involved in a romance scam.

What do I do? Right.

Speaker D: 00:35:01

Yeah, and that's, you know, Cassandra, I think that's a great question for you because we have seen that so many times.

And when the person is under what we call the ethereum, that the fraudster has them under, it is very difficult for even law enforcement, maybe a bank Investigator stops them and like, hey, you know, you're withdrawing a lot of money. Do you have any advice for family members that are struggling with this?

They're trying to convince their loved one or their parents or grandparents that they could be being defrauded. How do you approach those family members?

Speaker A: 00:35:36

I think that's a really great question because I think oftentimes family members will approach things from the lens of, you know, the person being wrong or that they shouldn't be doing the things that they're doing.

I think it's really important to approach somebody who could potentially be a victim of a romance scam from the lens of empathy and really be curious about their things that are going on in their world. I think anything accusatory or blaming is going to get them to shut down, which could potentially cause that romance scam to go on longer and longer.

If you suspect a family member of being a victim of a romance scam, it's really important to approach it again from the lens of curiosity, ask really good questions, help that individual see the red flags.

Sometimes it helps to do back end research to be able to see if you can find them on social media, if you can find them in other areas to see more about the romance scammer story.

But really coming to it from a lens of non accusatory questions, the moment you accuse somebody of doing something wrong, it brings up shame and shuts them down.

So I think it's really important for folks, family members and friends of victims of romance scammers or who are suspected of being victims to really become and curious. Curiosity is really important in this, in this arena.

Speaker D: 00:36:52

Yeah, absolutely. And you know what, Bernie? Cassandra confirmed she's not charging here for this session today. I'm kidding, I'm kidding.

But you know, I just want to say thank you both for coming.

And this is a different perspective that we've really ever had on the show where we, we've really focused in more on the victim, what's going on neurologically, chemically, in their bodies, and also the, the mind of the criminal or fraudster or person that's looking to take advantage maybe of somebody. So both of you are obviously incredible guests. Thank you so much for coming on the show.

And Cassandra, we're going to put your information, you have a practice here in the state of Connecticut. We could put it on our show. Notes, notes.

Speaker A: 00:37:35

Oh, thank you so much.

Speaker D: 00:37:35

And Bernie will put your dating profile on there. I'm kidding, I'm kidding. We won't do that. Go out there, go to Costco. Go meet. Meet somebody.

Speaker E: 00:37:45

I'm okay with the dating profile. If I, if I get some new leads.

Speaker D: 00:37:52

Well, that's one thing the IFCI can't do is we can't do single profiles. But anyway. But Bernie, thank you. I'm sorry, you know, you've experienced, but life will get better.

Like I said, get out there, meet some people face to face. And I think we'll. We'll have a show where maybe we could celebrate your marriage, your engagement. All right.

Speaker E: 00:38:15

Hey, we will definitely do that. And we will. Definitely. Because life is short. You know, I hope this helps people. I really hope to help guys not get scammed. Stop sending dollars.

If they don't like you and they get mad at you because you didn't send dollars, they were the wrong person already.

Speaker D: 00:38:34

Absolutely.

Speaker E: 00:38:35

I've now learned that.

Speaker C: 00:38:36

Hey, Cassandra, I wanted to ask you real quick, just another quick topic, and maybe this is another podcast down the road, but do you see younger generation getting more caught up, like with anxiety issues?

Speaker A: 00:38:49

Oh, gosh, we could spend a whole podcast.

Speaker C: 00:38:54

And I, I blame it on social media and what's out there. You know, you got to be perfect like that person. If you don't get a. Like, they could get upset. But do you. Is that something.

Maybe we could just have another, another episode and talk about it?

Speaker E: 00:39:10

No.

Speaker A: 00:39:10

I would love the opportunity to talk to you guys more about the impact of social media on our adolescent and young adult population. It's. It's created a whirlwind of, you know, anxiety and more intensive diagnoses.

We're seeing a lot more mood disorder, a lot more personality disorder type traits. Social media has been really devastating.

As beautiful as it is, as beautiful as technology can be to have access to all sorts of resources, it is also very damaging because they're seeing things that are oftentimes not true and accurate reflections, and they develop, you know, people pleasing and they develop, you know, this need to be perfect. Right. Perfectionism is something that we see a lot in our young population, you know, as well as in our adult population.

So, yeah, we could spend a ton of time talking about this because it is really so pervasive and devices and technology are so abundant and are so accessible to kids starting at very young ages that I see the long term impact, I think is going to be pretty catastrophic, you know, and we are in a post Covid world. And unfortunately, during that period of time of isolation, that's all the kids had to remain engaged and to remain connected to people.

And it has created a whirlwind of, you know, mental health crisis in this country. Connecticut is in a tremendous mental health crisis, you know, so it is something that's global. But, yeah, I mean, we talk about it for.

For an easy hour on how damaging it is at this stage.

Speaker D: 00:40:36

Yep, yep.

Speaker C: 00:40:37

Thank you, Cassandra.

Speaker D: 00:40:37

Absolutely. All right, well, Protectors Nation, we want to thank you for tuning in once again to the Protectors podcast.

You know, we love getting the word out to protect our citizens, so hopefully they don't become victims of frauds or scams or abuse. So again, Mike, where can they find us?

Speaker C: 00:40:57

Oh, man. You know, when I listen to podcasts, I go to Spotify, Apple, anywhere where you listen to podcasts, you'll find us.

We're there, the protectors everywhere.

Speaker D: 00:41:06

On a final note here, we gotta thank our two incredible guests, Bernie and Cassandra. Thank you so much for being a part of this and sharing both your experiences and your subject matter expertise.

Speaker A: 00:41:17

Thank you, Mike and Mark.

Speaker E: 00:41:18

I appreciate it, without a doubt.

Speaker C: 00:41:20

Thank you, Bernie.

Speaker E: 00:41:21

Oh, thank you so much for having me on, guys.

Speaker C: 00:41:23

Cassandra, thank you so much for everything that you do.

Speaker A: 00:41:26

Oh, thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it.

Speaker E: 00:41:29

Love you guys.

Speaker D: 00:41:30

All right, another great episode out there, and again, we're here to try and protect you from the criminals. So, hey, I'm Mark Solomon, international president, signing off in the great state of Connecticut.

Speaker C: 00:41:42

All right, this is Mike Carroll, international chairman. I'm from the great state of Illinois, and we will see you again.

Speaker B: 00:41:49

Thanks for listening to today's podcast. Remember, as you join the fight to protect our citizens, you're not alone.

With more than 6,500 members from around the world, the men and women of the IAFCI are standing together with you. To learn more or to join the IAFCI, please visit our website at www.iafci.org.

The Protectors Podcast is produced by Modified Media and is available for free wherever you listen to podcasts. The hosts and guests opinions are their own and do not reflect those of management, employers, or sponsors.

Listeners are encouraged to contact law enforcement if they suspect being a victim of a crime.